CHAIRMAN: You have seen from the Order of the Day that our Drafting Committee was able to complete its work yesterday, and I hope all of you have gathered in addition to CL 86/REP/1, CL 86/REP 1-Sup.l, CL 86/REP/2, also CL 86/REP/3 and CL 86/REP/4, so we have to consider all these, and as I requested yesterday I hope members will take the floor to offer substantive comments. If there are slight improvements in language, in all the languages, without changing the meaning that we are dealing with, kindly send your suggestions to the Secretary or to the Chairman of the Drafting Commettee.
The usual procedure is that after the Council approves such amendments as the Council Members decide, then the Secretary and the Chairman of the Drafting Committee will incorporate those changes and it will come to me for final approval, and I shall ensure that all the changes which we have accepted here, or any editorial changes, fully reflect what the Council decided, because some people asked me what would be the procedure and I wanted to explain that after the Chairman of the Drafting Committee has incorporated the changes I shall approve the final report on your behalf, ensuring that nothing is done to change anything that the Council decided.
PARAGRAPHS 11 to 29 (continued)
PARAGRAPHES 11 à 29 (suite)
PARRAFOS 11 a 29 ( continuación)
Now we will take up para. 15 of CL 86/REP/1 where we had two changes suggested and accepted, one by Canada and the other by Colombia, but the Ambassador of India had proposed a sentence which did not meet with approval, particularly with the delegate of the United States.
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): I am glad to say that since then we have had informal discussions with the distinguished Ambassador of the United States and it has been agreed that the sentence shall remain with the change that instead of the world "targets", it will be substituted with the words "adequate levels".
I will read out the whole sentence: "These replenishments should be brought up to adequate levels immediately with the cooperation of all concerned if their planned programmes of assistance to developing countries were to be sustained even in 1985". As a result, Sir, of this happy agreement between us, the Ambassador has assured me she will withdraw her reservation.
CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. I give the floor to the United States.
A.E. GUROFF (United States of America): Thank you Mr. Chairman. Could we have it once more slowly, please.
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): I may repeat that this was entirely agreed to with the Ambassador Fenwick but I will certainly read it again.
"These replenishments should be brought up to adequate levels immediately with the cooperation of all concerned if their planned programmes of assistance to developing countries were to be sustained even in 1985".
A.E. GUROFF (United States of America): Mr. Chairman, that is acceptable to the United States and we can remove our reservation. Could I ask that you reiterate what has been done with rest of the paragraph before we go on?
CHAIRMAN: The changes which were accepted today were the addition of "in 1983 relative to 1982" at the end of the first sentence of this paragraph. The second amendment proposed by Colombia which was accepted, reads: "It was agreed that the decrease in financing for developement was one of the factors which contributed to a deterioration in the existing imbalance between North and South, which might well affect peace and international security".
Shall we move on to the next paragraph, 16?
A. RODRIGUES PIRES (Cap-Vert): Je désire intervenir sur le paragraphe 16. La dernière phrase dit: "Le Conseil a constaté avec une vive préoccupation que la situation restait sombre dans une grande partie de l'Afrique". Nous ne comprenons pas bien. Je crois que nous avons dit que la situation est préoccupante, mais "sombre", à mon avis, n'est pas clair. Je propose qu'on ecrive "préoccupante" ou "difficile" mais "sombre," cela ne veut rien dire.
J. MUSHARRAF (Chairman, Drafting Committee): We did not debate the propriety of the word "grim" in our meeting, but I would agree with the remark here because it is only a part of Africa. Could it be "disturbing" or something or the other. We can think of an appropiate word later.
CHAIRMAN: Shall we use the words "continuing critical situation" - critical or grave. "Critical situation? would that be acceptable?
I. DIAZ YUBERO (España): En español, desde luego, la palabra "sombría" es para nosotros un reflejo mucho más perfecto. "Preocupante" es menos que "sombría". Yo creo que la situación es sombría, y en español queda muy bien como está.
CHAIRMAN: Well, I have the formulation which we accepted "the Council expressed grave concern over the continuing critical situation confronting much of Africa". Perhaps that can be put in the other languages properly.
Can we move on to paragraph 17?
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): May I suggest the ending in the last sentence which reads as follows: "It particularly called upon developed countries to refrain from protectionist measures especially against export products from developing countries" and therefore to add "and to liberalize their import policies". I would also agree to "to consider to liberalize their import policies". I would accept that also.
L. ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): Si se está tratando el párrafo 17, quisiera tener la oportunidad de hablar. Nosotros tenemos un problema en este párrafo que quisiéramos expresar. Nos parece que el examen de los verbatim reflejan lo que se expresó sobre la situación de medidas proteccionistas, y las medidas se referían específicamente y con fuerza a las actuales barreras proteccionistas y no solamente a que se abstuvieran de las futuras medidas. En estos momentos las fururas medidas no son las que nos afectan. Consideramos que el párrafo podría mejorar con una ligera modificación. Proponemos lo siguiente:
En la quinta línea del párrafo 17, donde dice: "y en particular que los países desarrollados", decir: "eliminen las barreras actuales y se abstengan de imponer nuevas medidas proteccionistas". Porque son las medidas actuales las que nos afectan ahora, las que nos están asfixiando.
P. ELMANOVSKY (France): Je ferai simplement remarquer que la phrase précédente qui correspond exactement à ce qui est la politique générale préconisée par les organisations compétentes, le dit sous une autre forme. Le Conseil évoquant les résolutions a reconnu qu'il importe que les exportations se développent librement et a demandé à tous les pays d'oeuvrer en faveur de la libération des échanges; cela recouvre le démantèlement des mesures actuelles existantes et en même temps cela recouvre l'idee de s'abstenir de prendre des mesures protectionnistes. Je crois done que le texte tel qu'il est, est amplement suffisant.
G.E. GONZALEZ (Argentina):He escuchado con mucha atención las palabras del representante de Francia y podría mi delegación estar de acuerdo con él si en la traducción española,en lugar de utilizar la palabra "colaborara", se dijese lo que aparentemente significa en francés; es decir, que los países desarrollados adopten las medidas necesarias para la liberalización del comercio. En este caso podríamos llegar a un acuerdo, sino mi delegeción estaría de acuerdo con la representación de Cuba en que se aclare que no se trata exclusivamente de que los países desarrollados se abstengan de imponer en el futuro nuevas medidas proteccionistas, sino de lo que se trata es de liberalizar el comercio, y ello exige dejar de lado las políticas proteccionistas que hoy nos afectan a todos los países en desarrollo.
P.S. Mc LEAN (United Kingdom): I merely wish to say that I agree absolutely with the comments that have been made by the delegate of France on this issue and I support his view that the text should remain as drafted before us.
G.BULA HOYOS (Colombia): Este es un punto importante sobre el cual se expresaros numerosas delegaciones. Yo creo que la propuesta que ha hecho el colega de Cuba aclara perfectamente la intención de quienes intervenimos a ese respecto y, en realidad, presenta mucho mejor la situación de lo que esperamos nosotros en materia de liberalización del comercio.
CHAIRMAN: Will the delegate of Cuba read out his proposal once again?
L. ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): La propuesta nuestra es incluir en el quinto renglón del párrafo 17, versión española, después de la frase: "y en particular que los países desarrollados" poner "eliminen las barreras actuales y se abstengan de imponer nuevas medidas proteccionistas".
Solamente esas pequeñas modificaciones.
W.A.F. GRABISCH (Germany, Federal Republic of): I hesitate to take part, but first I would like to flag to the Council that they have no proposal for an amendment for the whole of REP/1, so once we do something it will react. Here I am in full agreement with the delegate of Argentina who saw the difference in the meaning of the English and the Spanish versions. The English version is acceptable "to work for" and that is different from "que colaboren para". I think if the Spanish text could be brought in line with what is meant by the English text we could easily overcome that little difficulty and adopt the paragraph as it stands and go ahead.
CHAIRMAN: That is one aspect of the problem. The delegate of Cuba has suggested a particular point:" It particularly called on developed countries to abolish existing barriers and to refrain from further protectionist measures." Therefore it will not meet Argentina's point exactly as far as this last sentence is concerned. Colombia, do you want to speak on this aspect?
G.BULA HOYOS (Colombia): Vamos a tratar de conciliar la posición de Argentina y Francia. Tal vez pudiéramos aceptar la siguiente redacción:" se pidió a todos los países, en particular a los países desarrollados, que adopten las medidas necesarias'!
Esperamos que esta redacción pueda satisfacer las dos tendencias.
Lo demás sigue igual.
L.ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): Si se llega a aceptar la proposición de Argentina y la modificación que ha propuesto Colombia, Cuba estaría de acuerdo en que el párrafo siguiera diciendo: "que se adopten las medidas para la liberalización del comercio".
CHAIRMAN: Will the Ambassador of Colombia repeat exactly how that sentence will read now?
G.BULA HOYOS (Colombia): Diría: "y pidió a todos los países, en particular los desarrollados, que adopten las medidas necesarias para la liberalización del comercio" y que se abstengan de imponer medidas proteccionistas. Habría que modificar "que se abstengan de imponer medidas proteccionistas, especialmente sobre productos de exportación de países en desarrollo". Lo demás seguiría igual.
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): I think that perhaps this proposal would meet the points of Argentina, Cuba and Colombia by adding, "consider liberalizing their import policies". This would make it more specific as Cuba pointed out, "It particularly called on developed countries to refrain from protectionist measures". This will combine both points of view.
CHAIRMAN: May I once again say that the Drafting Committee is not a Committee-of-the-Whole, and I am afraid we could be here another week. There is always scope for improvement here and there. We cannot be doing formulation and reformulation here at this level. So will subsequent speakers make a clean suggestion which will solve the problem of how to get on?
P.ELMANOWSKY (France): Il y a deux textes qui me paraissent possibles: soit le premier qui avait été proposé par la délégation de l'Inde consistant à ajouter à la fin de la dernière phrase "et d'envisager de libéraliser leur politique d'importation", c'est je crois ce que le délégué de l'Inde avait proposé. Pas d'objection. Une seconde formule avait été proposée par M. Bula Hoyos, notre collègue de la Colombie, qui propose (pour tenir compte de ce que disait l'Argentine), dans la fin de la seconde phrase, "et a demandé à tous les pays, et particulièrement aux pays développés", je dirais quant à moi la formule tellequ'elle est actuellement dans le texte, "d'oeuvrer en faveur de la libération des échanges et a demandé à tous les pays et en particulier aux pays dévéloppés d'oeuvrer en faveur de la libération des echanges". En ce qui me concerne, cette phrase recouvre tout, si on oeuvre pour la liberation des échanges, cela vise aussi bien la situation actuelle que l'avenir et en outre cela correspond bien à ce qui semble maintenant se dessiner au GATT, où d'après les dernières informations recueillies, il semble que l'on se dirige vers une nouvelle période de négociations. Donc, ou la formule indienne, "on envisage de libéraliser les politiques d'importations", à la fin de la phrase, ou alors, la phrase colombienne et argentine, qui correspond à la seconde proposition, "et a demandé à tous les pays, et en particulier aux pays developpés, d'oeuvrer en faveur de la libération des échanges".
CHAIRMAN: You have heard the two proposals, the delegate of India's proposal, to add a few words at the end of the present sentence, and the proposal of Cuba, Colombia and Argentina, modified by France. I will read it out:" and called upon the countries, especially developed ones, to work for a liberalization of trade and to refrain from further protectionist measures especially against export products from developing countries." Is this acceptable to everyone? Thank you very much.
Sra. E. HERAZO de VITI (Panama): Solamente para señalar que en la página 7, en el texto español, la tercera línea, donde dice: "a causa de la negativa del principal país exportador" debe decir: "principal país importador". Tengo entendido que los textos en francés e inglés son correctos, únicamente en español no está bien.
CHAIRMAN: I am very grateful. Such discrepancies among languages, if you would be good enough to give them to us we will ensure that they are properly represented.
S.M. MATIUR RAHMAN (Bangladesh): I have a small correction which has implications. "The Council was of the view that the varying degrees of recovery of economic demand, combined with fluctuating supply patterns and the emergence of some new substitutes..." They are not only new but are increasing in volume and quality. Here I want to make one insertion "and the increasing emergence of substitutes: "some new" should be deleted. This will cover both new and old.
CHAIRMAN: Is this suggestion of Bangladesh acceptable- "The Council was of the view that the varying degrees of recovery of economic demand, combined with fluctuating supply patterns and increasing emergence of substitutes, were affecting commodity prices..."
Paragraph 19? Paragraph 20?
G.BULA HOYOS (Colombia): En la tercera frase del párrafo 20, deseo agregar solo una palabra. Empieza diciendo: "El Consejo tomó nota de que", luego dice "cinco países en desarrollo habían utilizado el Servicio".
Yo creo que habría que agregar: "sólo cinco países". Esto aparece después del párrafo 48 sobre la seguridad alimentaria.
J. TCHICAYA (Congo): Je voudrais d'abord apporter mon appui au mot qui vient d'etre ajouté par mon collègue de Colombie. Je pense qu'il faut effectivement mettre "seuls cinq pays en développeraent", mais toujours dans cette phrase, je pense qu'on devrait plutôt la renforcer en disant "le Conseil a note avec regret" et non "a note" simplement. Done "a note avec regret que depuis, seuls cinq pays en déve-loppement ont bénéficié de cela". Bon. Cela dit après la phrase suivante, toujours dans ce paragraphe, on lit "on a exprimé l'espoir que l'exâmen du mécanisme prévu pour 1985 permettra de l’améliorer". Je crois done qu'il convient d'ajouter ceci: "plusieurs delegations ont exprimc it voeu que lors de cet examen l'on prévoit l’extension de ce mécanisme aux importations de produits alimentaires agricoles". Ensuite, on continue, "on a deplore le fait que le FMI ait accorde avec autant de facilite un important credit à l'Afrique du Sud lui permettant de renforcer son potentiel militaire et multiplier ainsi ses agressions v regard des Etats de la ligne de front, ce qui constitue un. obstacle ma.]eur à la realisation des objectifs de production alimentaire de ce pays". Je voudrais ajouter que ceci a été dit au cours des discussions de ce point de notre ordre du .lour et qu'aucune delegation n'a contests cela.
A.E. GUROFF (United States of America): Can we have that read again, please?
CHAIRMAN: I will try to mention what has been said. There are two proposals here, the first in the middle of the paragraph: "The Council noted with regret that since the inception of the food financing facility some three and a half years ago, the facility had been utilized by five developing countries to an amount of...", and so on. Let us get that out of the way. I would like your decision as to whether you agree with those changes. Everybody seems to agree, so the sentence will begin, "The Council noted with regret that since the inception of the food financing facility...", and so on.
The next item is the additional suggestion of the distinguished delegate of Congo to add the following sentence after "It was hoped that the projected review of the facility in 1985 would provide the opportunity for its improvement". We should then add the following sentence: "Some delegations expressed the wish that in the course of this review the expansion of this facility to the imports of all food commodities and agricultural inputs be provided for." That is the first sentence. Is this sentence acceptable to everybody?
Mrs M. FENWICK (United States of America): In this fteport, are we reporting on what has been done, or are we now saying what we are hoping to do? In other words, are we trying to say what happened before? Is this Report supposed to tell us what has already been said in another place, or are we now putting things a novo, so to speak?
CHAIRMAN: The Report should be a true reflection of what has happened here. Its roots are derived from the verbatim reports.
Mrs M. FENWICK (United States of America): So what is now being proposed should be found in the verbatim reports?
CHAIRMAN: Will the distinguished delegate of the Congo confirm what the distinguished Ambassador of the United States has asked for? Were these points made on the floor of this house?
J.TCHICAYA (Congo): Ce point a été évoqué par ma delegation et d'autres delegations à plusieurs reprises au cours de nos débats. Je voudrais confirmer à ma collègue des Etats-Unis qu'il a bel et bien evoqué ici; et nous souhaitons pour cette raison qu'il figure au rapport.
Mrs M. FENWICK (United States of America): Can the distinguished colleague of Congo tell me in which verbatim report we find this, because I cannot take shorthand.
J. MUSHARRAF (Chairman, Drafting Committee): This is a new point which did not come before the Drafting Committee,but if it is in the verbatim record...
J.R.LOPEZ PORTILLO (México): Esa cuestión efectivamente fue tratada por varias delegaciones en nuestras exposiciones; se puede encontrar claramente esta propuesta y esta esperanza; no solamente ello, se ha venido insistiendo en que el propio Consejo de Seguridad Alimentaria incluya no solamente a los productos alimentarios, sino inclusive los insumos agrícolas porque la estrategia de seguridad alimentaria no puede tener éxito en la medida en que esos insumos sean prohibitivos para nuestros países. De ahí que hayamosinsistido y, repito , en los verbatim relativos a nuestras intervenciones se puede encontrar, así como la del representante del Congo y otras delegaciones, en que solicitamos la expansion del servicio financiero del Fondo Monetario Internacional para incluir insumos agrícolas y la totalidad de los pro-ductos agrícolas.
CHAIRMAN: Will this satisfy the distinguished delegate of the United States?
Mrs. M. FENWICK (United States ot America): I am sure that these will be in the verbatim reports, and I would like to get hold of the verbatim reports in which these proposals appear. I am sure they are excellent proposals, and what the distinguished delegate of Mexico has said is eminently sensible, and he has provided me with it.
CHAIRMAN: Meanwhile, shall we accept this sentence, subject to your taking it up again if necessary?
Mrs M. FENWICK (United States of America): I agree.
CHAIRMAN: So we canaccept the first proposal made by the distinguished delegate of Congo. Then the last sentence proposed by him reads somewhat like this- and perhaps he may correct it if I have noted it down wrongly, because I was writing rather fast- "It was regretted that IMF had granted so easily a large loan to South Africa enabling that country to strengthen its military potential and to multiply its aggressive attitude against the Front Line States, thus creating a major obstacle to the achievement of their food production targets." The distinguished delegate of Congo agrees with what I have written. Is it clear, Mrs. Fenwick?
Mrs M. FENWICK (United States of America):I will still be grateful for the verbatim report if I can have it.
L. ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): Queremos expresar nuestro apoyo total a lo expresado por el distinguido embajador del Congo y además garantizar que en nuestra intervencion, y aparece en el verbatim, planteamos la necesidad de que el Fondo Monetario Internacional se ocupara tarnbién de Africa como lo había hecho con créditos especiales a Sudáfrica. Lo dijimos textualmente así.
CHAIRMAN: Depending on a study of the verbatim report, the United States will reserve its position, but we must proceed to the next paragraphs 21, 22 and 23.
H. CARANDANG (Philippines): I was wondering whether instead of the first three words of the second sentence, we could put, "The Council agreed that more emphasis needed to be placed..." This is my amendment.
CHAIRMAN: Will the distinguished delegate of the Philippines read out in full the reformulated sentence.
H. CARANDANG (Philippines): I would like the second sentence of paragraph 23 to read: "The Council agreed that more emphasis needed to be placed on the development of integrated plant nutrient systems and improvement of biomass utilization and conversion in the priorities of FAO."
CHAIRMAN: we go on to paragraphs 24 and 25.
A. RODRIGUES PIRES (Cap-Vert): En ce qui concerne le point 24 et la seconde phrase, j'aurais préféré que l'on dise: "à ce propos la protection des cultures, particulièrement la lutte contre les insectes et les maladies, a été évoquée". Le Cap-Vert avait dit cela: "la protection des cultures en general, particulièrement la lutte contre les insectes et la maladie", a été évoquée.
CHAIRMAN: "Plant protection" includes all pests - that is the triangular, unholy , alliance of pests, diseases and weeds, so if you want to replace it with "plant protection", there is no need to put plant protection or control, you can just say "special protection was given" or "special protection of land and water". "Plant protection" includes weeds also: it is a wider term. If you agree, we will substitute the words "plant protection".
S.J. KAO (Lesotho): My understanding is that when you change "disease control" into "plant protection", you are actually excluding livestock diseases, whereas if you leave it like this, it remains broad and includes livestock diseases.
CHAIRMAN: As it reads here, it can involve both livestock and crops, otherwise I have no objection. We can add "plant protection" or "disease control" if you wish, but I suggest that we leave it as it is. The distinguished delegate of Cape Verde agrees, so the sentence remains as it is. Paragraphs 25, 26.
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): I have two suggestions. The draft reads, "The Council welcomed the attention given to urbanization." - that is precisely what we were discussing. So may I suggest that that sentence should read "The Council welcomed the attention given to the problems of urbanization". I have added the word "problem" in the sentence. That is all. My second suggestion is that the second line from the bottom should read, "It was observed that many of the rural-urban migrants were entire families coming from rural areas, including youths", or possibly for "youths" we could retain the phrase "young adults".
CHAIRMAN: As far as I can see, as on the question of rural migrants specific attention was given to the young, it does not exclude the movement of families, but it picks out several others. The first suggestion by the distinguished delegate of India was that we are just adding the words "problem of urbanization".
L.ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): No tengo ninguna objeción a lo expuesto por el distinguido representante de la India ni al párrafo en general; quisiera, sin embargo, hacer una adición a este párrafo, una adi-ción que la consideró muy personal porque quiero que se exprese lo siguiente: "un miembro consideró que de las causasy efectos del urbanismo y de la explosion demográfica no se puede responsabilizar a los países en desarrollo, aceptando la necesidad de estudiar y considerar su evolución para evitar sus incidencias negativas en el desarrollo económico y especialmente en la agricultural'
Decimos esto porque lo expresamos en estos terminos y creemos que es necesario estudiar esos dos fenó-menos con la profundidad y los detalles que nos expresó el profesor Islam, pero creemos que es necesario delimitar que en los documentos esto surja como una espada de Damocles sobre los estados en desarrollo que no son responsables de estos dos fenómenos.
CHAIRMAN: Can you repeat the sentence slowly, please, because the interpreters could not pick it up as you were speaking so fast. Please repeat it slowly.
L. ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): "Un miembro consideró que de las causas y efectos del urbanismo y de la explosion demográfica no se puede responsabilizar a los países en desarrollo, aceptando la necesidad de estudiar y analizar su evolución para evitar sus incidencias negativas en el desarrollo económico y especialmente la agricultural'
CHAIRMAN: Is there any objection to the inclusion of the sentence starting with"one member considered"?
Mrs. M.FENWICK (United States of America): I just wonder if it is possible to say that a developing country has no share in the increase in population. I mean what other country can be held responsible . for a larger, increase in population if it is not a country where the people live?. I think the question of analysing economic development is a very cogent one, because no economy of any nation in the world lives alone in a capsule, so it is perfectly clear that the responsibility goes further, but I do not see how the responsibility for an increasing population can extend beyond the borders of the country where the population is being produced.
J.R. LOPEZ PORTILLO (Mexico): Mexico hizo igualmente referenda al problema demográfico, y no tanto porque el problema demográfico es una cuestión impòrtante per ses, y porque tiene consecuencias dramáticas sobre el desarrollo sino porque la concepción misma de sobrepoblación no está ligada al crecimiento demográfico, sino igualmente al crecimiento económico, al bienestar social en general.
Lo que dijimos, y quizás podríamos adecuar esta oración propuesta por la delegación de Cuba para incluir también a México, es que el crecimiento demográfico debe evaluarse en función y en razón del desarrollo económico, y que en este sentido, deben interpretarse los criterios de sobrepoblación y de urbanización exagerada, de explosion demográfica o como se le quiera llamar.
Porque el punto aquí no reside en la explosion demográfica sino en su vinculación con el desarrollo. Es eso lo que se debe estudiar. El desarrollo se ve castigado por un orden internacional injusto. Esa es básicamente la tesis que nemos expresado varias delegaciones; o sea que si podemos encontrar otra redacción para la propuesta de la delegación de Cuba, podríamos incluirnos nosotros también en ello. Podríamos, en consecuencia, buscar una formula, y lo dejamos pendiente y mientras tanto pasamos a otros párrafos.
CHAIRMAN: Cuba and Mexico could get together and suggest. Congo?
J. TCHICAYA (Congo) Comme vient de le dire mon collègue du Mexique - et nous-mêmes sommes intervenus sur cette question de croissance démographique - nous pensons que c'est une notion tout à fait relative et qu'il faut la considérer au regard du développement économique et c'est pour cette raison que le Congo croit qu'il ne faut pas parler "d'un seul membre" mais plutôt "d'un certain nombre de membres" qui ont pensé qu'il fallait nuancer toutes ces questions et qu'on devait les étu-í dier plus à fond pour en connaître les causes et les consequences. C'est pour cette raison que le Congo s'associe également à cette adjunction.
CHAIRMAN: All right; Cuba, Congo and Mexico will kindly get together and formulate a sentence.
L. ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): Queríamos exponer el párrafo que estaba pendiente, 26 y 27, sobre urbaniza-í ción y explosion demográfica que se nos había encomendado buscar una redacción común entre Mexico y el Congo y después se nos unió la distinguida representación de Lesotho dando también su criterio. Si me lo permite leemos el párrafo que proponemos. Es el 26.
Bien. "Varios países expresaron sin embargo que la explosion demográfica y la sobrepoblación eran términos que tenían sentido solamente en función del desarroollo económico de cada país, que ha sido castigado sistemáticamente en los países en desarrollo bajo un orden económico internacional injusto, y que el proceso de urbanización inconveniente era en consecuencia de las influencias inde-seables de tal orden y no un producto y responsabilidad de los países en desarrollo, aceptando por tanto la realización de estudios sobre las causas de la migración campo/ciudad y sus implicaciones alimentarias."
Este sería el párrafo hecho en conjunto con Mexico,Congo, Cuba y una adición sobre los estudios propuesta por Lesotho.
Mrs. M. FENWICK (United States of America): I have only a Spanish text here and I am wrestling with it, but I do not see here any mention. There are undoubtedly economic reasons for the migration of the people from the country to the towns, but there is another problem which is not mentioned at all and that is the overall increase in the population. Now if you take a country where the population has gone up - and I can mention more than doubled in the past 20 years - you are going to have problems of urbanization which have to do with the numbers of people quite irrespective of the economic situation, and if the economic situation has not increased as rapidly - and there are many examples from which I could cite the figures - industrial production in one country down 29 percent, agriculture down 7.6 percent again year after year, and the population up from 8 to 20 million. Now the industrialization that had existed was failing, it was not popular; the agricultural production did not keep pace. You have got problems to do with the numbers of people, and that I do not see mentioned here even as part of the consideration - unless I have misunderstood the Spanish. My Spanish is not perfect, as my dear Mexican friend knows.
J. POSIER (France): A ce stade je voudrais poser deux questions. D'une part, serait-il possible d'avoir le texte de la proposition faite par l'Ambassadeur de Cuba parce que c'est quand même assez long et assez complexe, et je n'en ai pas très bien realise la teneur. J'en ai compris le sens general; je 'i l'ai fort bien compris.
D'autre part, je voudrais savoir si ce texte s'ajoute au par.26 tel que nous l'avons sous les yeux, tel qu'il a été prévu par le Comité de redaction, ou s'il se substitue à ce texte.
J.R. LOPEZ PORTILLO(Mexico): Solamente para aclarar que, efectivamente, al principio del párrafo que estamos sugiriendo se habla de sobrapoblación y de explosion demográfica y que éstos son términos necesariamente relativos al desarrollo; de otra manera tendríamos que concluir que Europa está sobrepoblada mientras que Africa está subpoblada. Si solo tomamos el término territorial así sera.
Nuestra tesis es precisamente que ni la sobrepoblación ni la explosion demográfica son términos que se pueden evaluar independientemente del grado de desarrollo y de las posibilidades de desarrollo y
que éstas están sujetas a las condiciones económicas internacionales en muy buena parte. Pero si estas condiciones restringen el desarrollo de los países en desarrollo habrá siempre sobrepoblación; si Africa pudiera tener la expectativa en el futuro de encontrar los niveles de desarrollo de al-gunos países europeos sin duda ahora podríamos decir que el crecimiento demográfico pensado a largo plazo no implicaría sobrepoblación, pero dadas las condiciones efectivamente cualquier cantidad adicional de población es excesiva en el crecimiento cero porque los países africanos están decreciendo en productos.
Esto es básicamente la tesis. Igualmente con respecto del proceso de utilización ésta no se debe exclusivamente a una responsabilidad de los gobiernos de intensificar o favorecer el crecimiento urbano, sino que el proceso económico internacional nos obliga por las inversiones extranjeras, por la ayuda alimentaria, por muchas otras influencias, a favorecer un crecimiento urbano y ese creci miento urbano ha desequilibrado las relaciones campo/ciudad desfavorablemente.
El fenómeno es muy complejo, por eso estamos solicitando un estudio al respecto porque la responsabilidad no se les puede imputar primordialmente a los gobiernos, sino que esto forma parte de un problema mundial mucho más complicado que queremos ver clarificado o por lo menos avanzado en su estudio a través de un análisis que pueda proporcionar la FAO.
S.J.KAO (Lesotho): Thank you Mr Chairman. My little contribution is an attempt to try and make a formulation starting with "agreeing", and our proposal is:"agreeing to the need to study and analyse rural/urban migration to avoid negative effects on social economic development, particularly on agriculture, and to formulate population management policies". Just to try and get that idea of population management and studies together. Thank you.
CHAIRMAN: The suggestion is if Lesotho could also join Cuba, Congo, Mexico and France, because we do not have the full formulation and an alternative formulation has been suggested now by Lesotho. If you can get together and see if you can get the correct sentence and the Cuban Ambassador will read it out. Paragraph 27. India has the floor.
H.J.TALEYARKHAN (India): I was endeavouring to seek a clarification from the Chairman of the Drafting Committee about this whole paragraph. It does not appear to me to be very clear. "In this regard, the relationship between urbanization in the developing world and the undesirable effects of agricultural modernization". This is surprising. We are all striving for modernizing agriculture. If we qualify it by saying there are undesirable effects of agricultural modernization, it will be totally misunderstood. We are trying to modernize it to the extent that it is possible to do, and I would like to know how the Drafting Committee decided on such wording.
CHAIRMAN: I thought "mechanization"is the word, because "modernization" means improved seeds, improved everything.
H.J.TALEYARKHAN (India): Exactly, that is exactly what I thought.
J. MUSHARRAF (Chairman, Drafting Committee): First I would say that the wording is not really happy and it could be improved, but the idea behind it, first I will say that this was added by us, I mean by the Committee, it was not in the initial draft, it was added on the suggestion of Argentina and the draft was prepared. There, was some confusion in the draft, and it was translated from Spanish to English and it was re-done etc., but the idea behind it was not challenged by everyone in our Committee. I also feel that there is some truth in it. The word "modernization" itself is now somewhat controversial. There is a view that the modernization process is at fault in agriculture and has certain negative effects.
What is being referred to here is perhaps the whole mix of technology, the new technology which is mechanization, but modernization is not confined to mechanization, the interaction of agri-business
for example, production for the market as opposed to what was then the subsistence sector, increasing exports - the whole, the entire modernization process including mechanization is a process which has certain harmful effects, and that is what the harmful effect in terms marginalization of the small farmer in terms of urbanization, etc., is¿so the idea is saund, the question is putting it in the right words. Argentina had suggested this and we could perhaps - I would suggest that we could perhaps put it like this: "In this regard, the undesirable effects" - we will delete the word "urbanization" at the beginning, we will delete this phrase "relationship between urbanization",etc. We say: "In this regard, the undesirable effects of agricultural modernization process was highlighted".
CHAIRMAN: I would like to suggest "the undesirable effects of inappropriate technology", because appropriate technology again is a word;in Argentina it may be one thing, in Pakistan it may be another; "inappropriate" because I think, as one who has worked for 40 years in agriculture, I must warn the developing countries in accepting this sentence of undesirable effects of agricultural modernization, because this is like Humpty Dumpty, you know the word will mean different things. This will be condemning developing countries in perpetuity to hunger and starvation if you are not going to take up new technology. Therefore, one could say "inappropriate technology", because that is what we understood,appropriate technologies and inappropriate technologies, and it will vary from country to country, what is appropriate and what is inappropriate. Chairman of the Drafting Committee?
J. MUSHARRAF (chairman, Drafting Comittee): I will be quite happy with this, this was not my sentence, it was only Argentina who proposed it. I do not know wether they have any strong feelings about saying something of the modernization process itself as being harmful, but it is entirely up to the Plenary to decide.
CHAIRMAN: Do you accept the words "undesirable effects of inappropriate technology"? Thank you very much.
Mrs A.DELLA CROCE DI DOJOLA (Italy): I wonder whether this slight change could in fact help, adding instead of "the undesirable effects of agricultural modernization" as it was, and "the developing world and certain undesirable effects" or "some undesirable effects".
CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Paragraph 28.
P. ELMANOWSKY (France): Un detail sur le paragraphe 27. Au lieu du mot "délétères" qui a un sens très particulier en français - on parle d'émanations délétères d'un produit - il vaudrait peut-être mieux parler des effets négatifs de techniques mal adaptées. Mais c'est uniquement une question de traduc-tion. Le mot "délétère" s'applique à des gaz délétères, c'est tout.
CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The suggestion is "the consequences of inappropriate technologies". I hope a suitable French and Spanish term could be found. Paragraph 28? Paragraph 29?.
L. ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): Quiero que me disculpe pero paso muy rápido el párrafo 28. Tengo una pequeña observáción en este párrafo. La observación es la siguiente. En el quinto renglón de la version española, aparece una frase que consideramos debe completarse. En esta frase la palabra "atractivas" solo para vivir y trabajar, nos parece un poco peligroso el que solo veamos la atracción que puede inducirnos a llevar a las pequeñas ciudades cosas atractivas nada más. No quiero señalar cuáles pueden ser, como casas de juego, prostitution, etc. Todo eso es atractivo hoy, y quisiéramos que esta frase dijera lo siguiente. Es nada más incluir aquí, después de "no agrícolas", "en tareas no agrícolas y mejorar en términos generales las condiciones económico-sociales y de vida en las pequeñas ciudades y las zonas rurales...", como sigue, "...afin de hacerlas más atractivas para vivir y trabajar". Seguiría igual; solamente incluir "mejorar en términos generales las condiciones económico-sociales y de vida", y en otro párrafo, "a fin de hacerlas". Creo que esto define un poco más la palabra "atractivas”.
CHAIRMAN: I hope you heard what Cuba suggested in the first sentence after "off-farm occupational needs' and add "improve the economic, social and living conditions of small towns and rural areas so as to make them more attractive places in which to live and work".
H.J.H.TALEYARKHAN (India): I had made a positive suggestion as a possible remedy for the problem of urbanization, so I would like it to be added, perhaps at the end of paragraph 28, "A possible remedy to the problem of urbanization is to encourage the starting of satellite towns within the periphery of rural areas". I think Mr Islam will recall that I had made a specific mention about this, what I would like to consider an important suggestion.
G.BULA HOYOS (Colombia): Creemos que este tema es muy importante. Es uno de los asuntos de fondo que tratamos siempre, y por ello consideramos que sería conveniente tener, al final de la parte de nuestro informe sobre este tema, un párrafo que refleje la conclusión de nuestros debates y que contenga algo a lo cual hicimos referencia numerosas delegaciones y que no aparece en el texto. Hemos entregado el texto al Sr. Henderson, pero vamos a modificarlo un poco para evitar controversias.
Lo voy a leer, suprimiendo una parte del texto que le había entregado al Sr. Henderson. Se dice: "El Consejo concluyó que la situación alimentaria y agrícola es muy desfavorable para los países en desarrollo. Se pidió mayor y más decidida voluntad política por parte de algunos países desarrollados". Creemos que eso fue dicho aquí por numerosas delegaciones y que es un hecho, y que ojalá esto no ofrezca dificultades.
CHAIRMAN: No, the first sentence was clear: "the Council concluded that the food" - Colombia has proposed a paragraph in addition to number 30 as a concluding paragraph before we go to "The Food Situation in Africa". The first sentence reads: "The Council concluded that the food and agricultural situation is very unfavourable to developing countries"."... the food and agricultural situation is very unfavourable to developing countries. Greater political will" - Can you read that sentence again, Colombia?
G.BULA HOYOS (Colombia): Sí, la primera usted la ha leído muy bien, señor Presidente. La segunda es sencilla: "Se pidió mayor y más decisiva voluntad política por parte de algunos países desarrollados."
CHAIRMAN "Was requested" for what, for giving assistance or what - "greater and more decisive political will from some developed countries was requested". India has the floor.
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): Instead of the word "requested" we can say "was desirable", perhaps, instead of having to qualify what "requested" means.
CHAIRMAN: "Desirable" instead of "requested".
Mrs M. FENWICK (United States of America): I agree in substance. I know what my distinguished and so friendly colleague of Colombia is pointing to, but we ought to say "will" for what, not just say "will is desirable", and I think that all countries, we must have will to do something, we must urge them not just to have will to order other countries around, not just to have will to close their frontiers. I mean let them say what we mean, and I think we know what he means. Let us say it.
G. BULA HOYOS (Colombia): Cuando hicimos esta propuesta, tratamos de atenernos a sus sabios consejos en el sentido de no tratar de agregar demasiados textos al Proyecto del Informe. Sin embargo, en su brevedad, en sus dos miembros de esa frase, este párrafo es claro. En la primera frase decimos que la situación es desfavorable para los países en desarrollo, y en la segunda frase pedimos la mayor y más decidida voluntad política, justamente para mejorar esa situación. Pero no queremos alargar el texto, pero es claro. Es decir, mayor y más decidida voluntad política justamente para mejorar esa situación que es desfavorable.
Mrs M. FENWICK (United States of America): Would my distinguished colleague accept "greater and more decisive political will to bring about improvement" referring to the situation which has been described as unfavourable; "greater and more decisive political will to bring about improvement". Would that be satisfactory?
J.TCHICAYA (Congo): Je partage le point de vue de l'Ambassadeur des Etats-Unis et je crois qu'il convient effectivement de donner une précision. Je pense que ce que nous avons tous déclaré ici était suffisamment clair pour que cette precision soit apportée à cet amendement. Nous pensons qu'il convient de dire "une plus grande volonté politique afin de mobiliser davantage de ressources pour améliorer..." et je pense que l'Ambassadeur des Etats-Unis a dit "pour améliorer la situation".
W.A.F. GRABISCH (Germany Federal Republic of): Thank you Mr Chairman. Again, with hesitance we would go along with the proposal made by the distinguished delegate of Colombia and amended by the distinguished delegate of the United States, but we should also see the issue in a broader context and we would propose to say "from all countries, particularly developed countries". I think this is an issue which comprises the whole international community and not just some countries.
CHAIRMAN: Colombia agrees. "A greater and more decisive political will is needed from all countries, particularly developed countries, to bring about an improvement in the situation". Cuba has the floor.
L. ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): Era para apoyar lo propuesto por el Sr. Grabisch. Estamos totalmente de acuerdo en que todos tenemos que participar en esa voluntad política.
CHAIRMAN: Shall we move on to paragraph 30 ? Ambassador of Congo, do you still want the floor?
J. TCHICAYA (Congo): Je désire intervenir car je ne connais pas le sort qui a été réservé à ce que j'ai ajouté.
CHAIRMAN: You wanted to add "the mobilization of resources". That is the only difference I find. Congo, if I got it correctly, wants to say "A greater and more decisive political will is needed from all countries, particularly developed countries, to mobilize additional resources to bring about improvement in the situation".
W.A.F. GRABISCH (Germany, Federal Republic of): Mr Chairman, I do not think the issue should be just limited to resources. It is a question also of policies that are being adopted by countries. So it is not just only the question of resources, and I think if the distinguished delegate of Congo could kindly take this into consideration, I think it would be, at least in the view of my delegation, rather more convenient.
J.TCHICAYA (Congo): Quand je parle de mobilisation de resources, je crois qu'il s'agit bien là de politique. Ce n'est pas autre chose et j'ai partagé le point de vue de mon ami de la République fédérale d'Allemagne en disant que cette mobilisation des ressources ne concerne pas uniquement les pays développés mais également les pays en dévelqppément eux-mêmes. C'est une politique et une volonté politique que de vouloir mobiliser les ressources, même intérieures. C'est important, et je pense qu'il convient d'insérer ce que je venais d'ajouter.
CHAIRMAN: I think it can be said "to mobilize additional resources and develop appropriate government policies". I think the German Ambassador is concerned about input and output pricing policies. There are so many government policies which are needed to bring about an improvement. Resources is only one aspect of the measures needed to bring about,so I would suggest that instead of continuing the discussion we say "to mobilize additional resources and introduce appropriate government policies to bring about an improvement in the situation".
H. CARANDANG (Philippines): Mr Chairman, I was wondering whether you could also include the removal of general constraints, because there was a lot of debate on this.
CHAIRMAN: I would request you not to press. I think "mobilize additional resources and introduce appropriate government policies" is all-comprehensive. Thank you very much; that was in the previous paragraph, yes, that has all been approved.
So we will have a new paragraph 30 at the end of 27, as proposed by Colombia and modified by the United States and others, and that is a good suggestion, and I thank you, Ambassador of Colombia. We go to the food situation in Africa. The paragraphs will all be renumbered later so do not bother about them. Cape Verde has the floor.
Paragraphs 11 to 29 not concluded
Les paragraphes 11 à 29 sont en suspens
Los párrafos 11 a 29 quedan pendientes
PARAGRAPHS 30 to 44
PARAGRAPHES 30 à 44
PARRAFOS 30 a 44
A. RODRIGUES PIRES (Cap-Vert): Au paragraphe 31 on dit, "s'est déclaré sérieusement préoccupé de la situation alimentaire très critique en Afrique, notamment en Ethiopie". Je voudrais ajouter "et dans les pays au sud du Sahara"; "où il y a déjà eu de nombreuses pertes de vies humaines, et dans les pays du Sahara". Parce qu'il n'y a pas simplement que l'Ethiopie et que la situation est très grave. Dans mon intervention j'ai parlé des pays sahéliens, du Niger, de Burkina Faso et des zones dont la situation est assez grave en Ethiopie.
CHAIRMAN: I think that is acceptable, particularly to India?
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): Certainly acceptable. I am only pointing out one more thing. Would it be acceptable to you Sir, to include here "the general assistance given by donor as well as by developing countries in grain, cash consultancy and other services were appreciated." It was mentioned elsewhere.
CHAIRMAN: There is the sequence there. This only deals with the situation.
Paragraph 32? Paragraph 33? Paragraph 34? Paragraph 35? Paragraph 36?
J. MUSHARRAF (Chairman, Drafting Committee): There is a typing error in paragraph 36 which might cause confusion. This refers only to the English text. The other languages are correct. Only in the English text the last sentence of paragraph 36 should read "The Council noted with appreciation the decision of one donor government", and here we should add the following phrase: "to preposition food stocks in vulnerable areas. Many members urged other governments", and then we can continue as printed-"to consider similar action etc.".
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): Mr Chairman, I would like to make one entirely, and I am quite sure acceptable addition to the end of the paragraph. I have little doubt in my mind that it will be appreciated. It would read as follows: "The Council further noted with appreciation the decision of the Government of India to provide 100,000 tonnes of wheat to the drought-affected countries of Africa. It is a fitting tribute to the memory of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi who always had the interests of suffering humanity anywhere in the world so much at heart." May I recommend the inclusion of these unanimously agreed sentences at the end of this para?
G. BULA HOYOS (Colombia): En primer lugar, señor Presidente, queremos expresar nuestra complacencia no sólo por la adición de la frase que ha propuesto el representante de India, sino por la actitud tan positiva de ese importante país.
Queremos referirnos a las dos últimas frases del párrafo 36. Nos alegramos de hacerlo en el sentido positivo y consideramos que la frase a la cual se refirió el señor Presidente del Comité de Redacción es muy importante e, inclusive, hubiéramos querido redactar aún con mayor énfasis, para destacar esa actitud positiva de los Estados Unidos. Nos abstenemos de hacerlo para no distraer su proceso de acuerdo; pero sí pensamos que la frase siguiente, o sea, la última frase actual, antes de la que agregó el representante de India, debería decir: en vez de "muchos miembros", "el Consejo"instó a otros Gobiernos, porque el Comité de Redacción reflejó lo que dijeron muchos miembros, pero todo el Consejo estaba de acuerdo en reconocer esa actitud positiva y en instar a que todos los Gobiernos hagan lo mismo.
CHAIRMAN: Well, shall I read it out for your benefit, other than the sentences proposed by India, as modified by the Drafting Committee Chairman and the delegate of Colombia. "The Council noted with appreciation the decision of one donor government to preposition food stocks in vulnerable areas. The Council urged other governments to consider similar action to ensure that urgently needed food aid was delivered to the affected population without delay." Then follow the two sentences proposed by India.
Well, thank you very much. Paragraph 37? Paragraph 38?
P.S.McLEAN(United Kingdom): Just a small point on paragraph 38.I think the sense of the discussion on the Director-General's proposal and the Council's reaction to it would be perhaps better reflected if the first sentence could have at the end added just the words "in cooperation with other donors". I trust that would be acceptable, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRMAN: Can you read it out, please, Mr McLean
P.S.McLEAN (United Kingdom): From the point where it says "to refocus some of FAO's Regular Programme resources during the current biennium up to an amount of US$5 million to support the rehabilitation efforts of the affected countries in cooperation with other donors".
H.CARANDANG (Philippines): Mr Chairman, I just wanted to find out the objective of this amendment, because if I understand the procedures in FAO,. what it really means is that the Director-General makes a proposal to refocus the amount indicated there. He will submit it to the Finance Committee and later to the Council. Therefore, the consultation goes not only to donors but to all the members of the said Committees and of the Council. I want to be clarified therefore on what is the objective of the amendment just made.
J. TCHICAYA (Congo): J'avais moi-même les mêmes preoccupations que mon collègue des Philippines. Je ne comprends pas très bien la signification de l'adjonction qui est proposée. Lorsque je regarde le texte de la seconde phrase , je constate que l'on parle d'organiser une mission mul.tidonateurs en Ethiopie. Je pense qu'il y a déjà cette volonté de cooperation avec les donateurs; c'est pour cette raison que je ne comprends pas cette adjonction et pour ma part je ne trouve pas qu'elle soit la bienvenue ici.
DEPUTY DIRECTOR-GENERAL: There are two points I want to make, Mr Chairman. One is a grammatical one rather than anything else. The proposed amendments refer to other donors but I do not see a reference in the sentence at the moment to donors, and I think it would be inappropiate to refer to FAO as if it were a donor. I do not think that anybody would want that. What is involved here is refocussing FAO's regular programme resources. My second point in that regard is that this will be done within the Director-General's existing authorities, but if and when it is necessary to go to the Finance Committee and Council under the financial rules and regulations to report transfers and so forth, that of course will be done, but it may not be necessary to do that. We will have to see whether the refocussing involves any such formal procedure or not. So what we are talking about is simply refocussing some of the existing programmes and activities, most of which will already have been directed towards Africa, but refocussing them towards this rehabilitation aspect, so perhaps some publications with a longer term bearing will be replaced with something more direct and more short-term on rehabilitation. That is all.
I do not really think the question of the donors as such comes into this part. As regards the general aspect of cooperation with donors, well that is referred to in the following sentence. It would certainly be the case, in respect of other countries on which we shall bring our rehabilitation efforts to bear, and we hope that the response will be very widespread. So far the response has been rather narrow in this case, possibly because of the shortage of time, but it is certainly our hope and our wish there will be the widest cooperation with donors in all our habilitation efforts. In particular we shall need them to supply the large quantities which will no doubt be required of seeds and inputs and so forth, whether bilaterally or by other means.
P.S. Mc LEAN (United Kingdom): Thank you Mr Chairman. I take Mr West's point about the phraseology in the actual words I used in reference to other donors. The point was a very simple, practical, one, and an indication I had hoped and thought that it would be sensible for the Council to take note of whatever FAO might be doing could be in cooperation with others, but I am not going to insist, Mr Chairman; I withdraw the proposal.
CHAIRMAN: So paragraph 38 stands as it is. We move on to paragraph 39.
A.RODRIGUES PIRES (Cap-Vert): On dit: "les représentants de pays africains ont indiqué que leurs Gouvernements prenaient actuellement un certain nombre de mesures"; cela veut dire que dans le passe ils n'ont rien fait, si je comprends bien; c'est ce qu'on veut dire; j'aurais préféré que l'on mette: prenaient un certain nombre de mesures" et que l'on biffe le mot "actuellement". En effet, cela peut prêter à confusion. "Prenaient actuellement un certain nombre de mesures": cela veut dire que dans le passe on n'a rien fait.
CHAIRMAN: Is this all right? "many members from African countries indicated that their governments had taken a number of measures..."
S.J. KAO (Lesotho): I think it would be better to say "are taking" which means they are doing it from the past to the future, a continuous programme.
CHAIRMAN: Lesotho has proposed "are taking".
There is a problem in the French text, which has added the words "at present". So I think if we adopt Lesotho's point and properly translate it in French it will be all right.
H.CARANDANG (Philippines): Is the proposal to. change the verb into the present tense, "are taking"?
CHAIRMAN: That is the proposal.
H. CARANDANG (Philippines): I was wondering whether it was correct, because the procedure in reporting is always in the. past tense. There is a concordance of tenses here. The mere fact that it is reported in the past does not mean they are not taking action right now. It is a question of convention.
CHAIRMAN: So you prefer "had taken" if Lesotho has no objection.
S.J. KAO (Lesotho): In that case the better English is "were taking". The original would be better.
CHAIRMAN: I think the French translation is correct. Cape Verde agrees. So we leave it as it is.
A.RODRIGUES PIRES (Cap-Vert): C'est une intervention de fond; en tout cas, mon pays ne peut pas accepter "que leurs Gouvernements prenaient actuellement...". Est-ce que dans le passé ils n'ont rien fait? C'est une intervention de fond. Je n'accepte pas que le mot "actuellement" soit maintenu.
CHAIRMAN: "At present" is to be omitted from the French text. Congo?
J. TCHICAYA (Congo): Je pense que l'on pourrait concilier les points de vue exprimés par tout le monde en disant: "que leurs Gouvernements continuent à prendre un certain nombre de mesures". Est-ce que eel a pourra satisfaire mon collègue du Cap-Vert?
CHAIRMAN: Thank you. So the sentence will say "the governments continue taking a number of measures". Paragraph 40? 41? 42?
L.ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): en el párrafo 42 en la línea número 8 de la versión española quisiéramos incluir, porque consideramos que le damos la secuencia necesaria a lo aprobado en el párrafo 41 al definir el problema básico estructural que obstaculiza el crecimiento del sector alimentario, quisiéramos incluir en esta línea, después de "atención a los problemas" la palabra "estructurales" y continúa "y de los pequeños agricultures" no dejar solo lo de "pequeños agricultures".
CHAIRMAN: You have heard the suggestion of Cuba to add "The need to pay special attention to structural problems and to the problems of small farmers was emphasized".
Mrs M. FENWICK (United States of America): I had not expected to ask for time, but it makes me feel, remembering what President Kountché said to us the other day, we have to emphasize talking to, and above all listening to small farmers. "Structural is fine, but that is another world from where the small farmer is trying to live at the end of a dirt track. I do not know where there is sufficient warmth of concentration on small farmers. Who is going to listen to them? So I regret the weakening by the inclusion of the word "structural" because I was hoping that we could have even greater emphasis on listening to small farmers.
CHAIRMAN: The Ambassador of the United States has suggested that we should not dilute the emphasis, the sole emphasis on small farmers. If necessary^the structural problems could be included in another appropiate place.
J.TCHICAYA (Congo): Le délégué de Cuba vient de renforcer le texte en ajoutant ce terme "structurel". Nous pensons qu'il convient de le renforcer effectivement et non pas de le diluer en laissant "les problèmes des petits agriculteurs". Quels sont ces problèmes? Ce sont des problèmes structurels; les petits agriculteurs ont besoin d'etre aides; il faut des structures de credit, ceci est très important; je crois que le terme qu'il vient d'ajouter apporte vraiment plus de clarté et nous pensons qu'il faut que le Conseil appuie ce terme.
H.J.H.TALEYARKHAN (India): I could not agree more with the Ambassador of the United States, and I could not agree less with the Ambassador of Cuba either, because the stress on the small and marginal farmers certainly requires to be paid to the maximum extent. I would make only a small amendment which may satisfy the Ambassador of the United States as well as the Ambassador of Cuba. That iS|that we say "structural and other". That would cover everything. I hope it will be acceptable to Ambassador Fenwick as well as to the Ambassador of Cuba.
Mrs M. FENWICK (United States of America): I thank my colleagues from Cuba and India. I think we could put "improvement of distribution and transport facilities and other structural problems" right together where they are with the big more macro-economic stuff, leaving the small farmers with their problems in one emphasized sentence. We could put "credit", which certainly is important, "and other structural problems".
W.A.F. GRABISCH (Germany, Federal Republic of ): This suggestion which has been made would not give a full picture of what is necessary. The full picture was given by the World Conference on Agrarian Reform and Rural Development. There we have a whole range of issues which have to be taken into consideration. We have the action programmes which have been adopted in ‘79. Is it really necessary to change the text if we already have guidance on what problems should be taken up with regard to improvements in the situation of the small farmers? But if the majority of the Member States wishes to change the text I have no problem, but I do not think it is necessary.
CHAIRMAN: May I just say what is now being discussed? The Anbassador of the United States has suggested "improvement of distribution and transport facilities and other structural problems" and the delegate of Germany would like to say "identified by WCARRD". Then that sentence ends there, "and other structural problems identified by WCARRD. The need to pay special attention to problems of small farmers.'· The United States delegate wants to add "credit" in the previous sentence, - "credit and other structural problems identified by WCARRD. The need to pay special attention..."
L. ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): Sí, señor Presidente; no pensábamos que una frase iba a traer una discusión. Me parece que si leemos con cuidado, que fue lo que hicimos antes de proponer esto, vemos que el párra-fo 42 nos indica varias medidas de acción prioritarias en las cuales está el transporte, servicios, distribución, alimentos, erradicación de plagas, una gama muy amplia de medidas, pero en el centro del párrafo se puso de relieve la necesidad de prestar especial atención a los problemas estructurales y de los pequeños agricultures. Nosotros estaríamos de acuerdo con aceptar la proposición de la distin-guida representación de la India de "estructurales y otros y de los pequeños agricultores". La frase de "los pequeños agricultures" no hemos propuesto quitarla, creemos realmente que los problemas de los agricultures son de estructura y estamos también de acuerdo en que la Conferencia Mundial de Reforma Agraria y sus planes de acción analizó esto, pero como no estamos analizando la adopción de la Conferencia sino el párrafo 42 creíamos que con la palabra "estructurales" y la proposición de India "y .otros" quedaba completa la vision general que ,debe dar el párrafo de medidas prioritarias.
J. TCHICAYA (Congo): Nous aussi nous serions plutôt tentés d'accepter la proposition faite par l'Inde. Nous croyons sincèrement qu'en adoptant cette condition nous tenons justement compte du programme d'action de la CMRADR; par consequent, je crois que le problème structurel pour les petits agricul-teurs est un problème très important et nous ne pouvons pas le négliger; par consequent, je voudrais appuyer la proposition faite par l'Inde pour que nous puissions avancer.
Mrs M. FENWICK (United States of America): I do not know how many people have spoken to small farmers, but when you talk to small farmers what are they really worried about? Structural problems-they do not even know what you are talking about. They are worried about the larger grain-borers, the mealy bug that eats up all their cassava. These are their real problems. I do not know what is meant by structural problems, and I do not think the small farmers does. If you are putting that with credit distribution, transport, pricing policies, that is structural. But I think somewhere the small farmer needs to be singled out as the person to whom we are addressing ourselves, to whom we are listening with the greatest concern and the utmost respect. I do not know why throw in structural in the same sentence as small farmers as though they were part of some big macroeconomic stuff. We have small farmers that need to be listened to. I do not know why we cannot put "structural" in with transport, distribution, credit, and all other such things.
J. TCHICAYA (Congo): Nous insistons là-dessus par ce que nous aussi nous avons parlé aux agriculteurs et pendant assez longtemps. C'est la raison pour laquelle nous insistons sur ce mot "structurel". C'est important. On ne peut pas négliger cet aspect des choses; les agriculteurs, quand ils n'ont pas assez de terre pour cultiver, par exemple, savent que ça leur pose des problèmes. Nous avons, à certaines époques, nous aussi dirigé l'agriculture de notre pays et nous pensons que nous avons à ce sujet un certain nombre d'experiences que nous pouvons faire valoir ici; c'est pour cette raison que je continue à appuyer la proposition faite par l'Inde parce qu'elle reflète les aspects du problème que l'on rencontre en Afrique; originaires de cette region, nous connaisons les quelques problèmes qui se posent à tous, bien entendu; nous en connaissons un certain nombre.
L.ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): Nosotros queremos expresar exclusivamente lo siguiente: comprendemos a quieri necesite hablar con pequeños agricultures porque no tienen pequeños agricultures, eso lo comprendemos, que tenga que salir de su país para hablar con ellos, pero nosotros somos un país de pequeños agricultures a los cuales les dimos la propiedad en una reforma agraria integral, completa, y están haciendo su desarrollo sobre la base individual y cooperativa. Nosotros comprendemos que ésa es la estructura que consideramos que hay que analizar junto con precios, transporte, crédito. Nosotros si tenemos pequeños agricultures, no tenemos grandes consorcios, ni grandes compañías, ni grandes sociedades con acciones en grandes territorios, ni grandes maquinarias, tenemos pequeños agricultures en tabaco, cafe, etc.
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): May I make a compromise suggestion which may perhaps be acceptable to our friends from Cuba and Congo, that we retain what they were good enough to accept, "structural and other areas" in order also to accommodate the Ambassador of the United States, inclusion of "tfansport, credit" etc.
CHAIRMAN: Transport has come in the previous sentence.
H.J.K. TALEYARKHAN (India): Ambassador Fenwick has indicated it might come here instead.
Mrs M. FENWICK (United States of America): No. In some countries we have now one big landowner, not 500, and I do not think the little farmer likes that any better than he did when he had 500 big landowners and he could not get his hands on his own piece of land. But leaving that aside, if that is what is meant by "structural" I am against it, because I do not think the little farmer likes it. This is beyond patience. Let us be serious about what we are doing. I would like to put "structural" in with distribution, credit, transport, pricing and all the other places where "structural" belongs. But I would like to have one little sentence in all this for the poor people at the end of the line. And I may say I have gotten a note from a representative of an African country who profoundly and passionately agrees with me. We must be serious about what we really mean here. One big landowner is not any better than 50 - it is worse.
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): I fully appreciate the great anxiety of the Ambassador of the United States, but the knowledge and experience of small and marginal farmers is also very well known to all of us from India, Cuba, Mexico, Colombia, Congo and other countries. She has not denied it, but she has stressed necessarily that the two cannot be interconnected. What the Ambassadors of Mexico, Cuba, Congo and Colombia have suggested is quite simple, and I am sure that it might be acceptable to Ambassador Fenwick, that "structural" can be retained without any detriment to the significance to what she wants to have imparted and incorporated in the text of this paragraph. Supposing, as you just mentioned, Mr Chairman, transport has already been included in that, we need not include it at this stage. We can say "distribution, credit" etc. I think that may be acceptable, without disturbing "structural" in other areas. I am only trying to find a compromise solution which would be acceptable to both sides. If the United States would also accept this and if transport has come elsewhere then "distribution, credit" could be included in "structural and other areas".
H.HØSTMARK (Norway): If a compromise solution is arrived at, all right, but I will come back if not.
CHAIRMAN: The suggestion of the distinguished delegate of India is "The need to pay special attention to structural and other problems including credit and other problems of small farmers was emphasized".
Mrs M. FENWICK (United States of America): Would the distinguished delegate of India allow the mention of "structural" in the previous sentence? I am not against considering "structural". Would he support "structural" going into the preceding sentence, leaving the needs of small farmers emphasized by themselves.
CHAIRMAN: If it is agreeable to the distinguished delegates of Cuba and Congo, may we have a separate sentence on structural problems reading, "The need to pay special attention to the problems of small farmers was emphasized. In this context, attention to structural problems was specifically mentioned", so we have two sentences; leave the existing sentence as it is and then add, "In this context, the need to pay special attention to structural problems was also emphasized".
L. ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): No vamos a entrar en discusión; no vamos a entrar en ningún tipo de discusión sobre seriedad porque la seriedad nosotros no la discutimos ahora. Creo, en función de no hacer de esto un problema insoluble y no retrasar la discusión de este Consejo, creo que lo propuesto por la India podemos aceptarlo. Y podemos además dejar el párrafo de los pequeños agricultures totalmente como un párrafo apafte. Y el punto que termina en transporte, si lo convertimos en coma para que quede "transporte, precios, créditos y en especial los problemas estructurales". Y dejamos eso así, y después sigue "Se puso de relieve la necesidad de prestar especial atencion", puesto que seria otro párrafo.
CHAIRMAN: The distinguished delegate of the United States has accepted this addition. Everybody has accepted.
J. TCHICAYA (Congo): Je suis plutôt tenté dfaccepter la formule de l?Inde qui nous a été proposee et que vous avez relue tout à l'heure, dire que "dans ce contexte on a souligné la nëcessite d'accorder (disons) une place de choix aux problèmes structurels". Après la phrase "les petits agriculteurs" on dirait "dans ce contexte". J'accepte cette redaction plutôt que celle proposee par Cuba.
CHAIRMAN: The distinguished delegate of Cuba agrees with you, so we have a separate sentence after the sentence ending, "....problems of small farmers was emphasized", we add, "In this context, the need to pay attention to structural problems'was emphasized". Otherwise, the paragraph is exactly the same. We have only added one additional sentence. Paragraph 43?
A. RODRIGUES PIRES (Cap-Vert): Au paragraphe 43 on cite toutes les difficultés qui gênent "la mise en oeuvre de leurs programmes de développement agricole" mais on oublie ce qui a etê dit ici par la plupart des orateurs africains, cfest-à-dire les moyens de production comme les semences, les inputs, c'est très important et par consequent je voudrais suggérer quTaprès les "insuffisances de lfinfrastructure" on ajoute "particulièrement le manque dfintrants, de moyens de production" et on continue "risques sanitaires, etc.". Je repète, je voudrais que le manque de materiel, les intrants, les moyens de production, tout cela soit très bien mis en evidence parce que c'est un facteur limitatif en Afrique et partout.
CHAIRMAN : I think everyone will agree that we add after "... and other infrastructural deficiencies", the words "in particular the shortage of production inputs".
J. TCHICAYA (Congo): Je suis d'accord, bien entendu, avec mon collègue du Cap-Vert pour qu!on ajoute les intrants agricoles après "infrastructure", mais auparavant je voudrais également, à la troisième ligne du texte français, après les deux points de "contraintes materielles", qu'on ajoute "entre autres". Je pense qu'en dehors de ce qui est cite il y a d'autres contraintes materielles et il suffit de mettre simplement "entre autres precipitations incertaines et sécheresses fréquentes". Je veux dire que la liste ici nfest pas exhaustive et qu'il convient de nuancer le texte.
CHAIRMAN: The distinguished delegate of the Congo has suggested that the first sentence of paragraph 43 should begin as follows, MThe Council noted with concern that African countries were hampered in implementing agricultural development programmes by a number of physical constraints such as uncertain rains and frequent drought", so this is illustrative and not a list of constraints. Paragraph 44 ?
Paragraphs 30 to 44, as amended, approved
Les paragraphes 30 à 44, ainsi amendés, sont approuvés
Los párrafos 30 a 44, asi enmendados, son aprobados
PARAGRAPH 45, INCLUDING RESOLUTION
PARAGRAPHE 45, Y COMPRIS LA RESOLUTION
PARRAFO 45, INCLUIDA LA RESOLUCION
J. MUSHARRAF (Chairman, Drafting Committee): As Council will notice, paragraph 45 as it stands is incomplete. The complete text of paragraph 45 is given in the one page supplement, CL 86/REP/1-Sup.1, which gives the text of the Resolution, so I do not have to read it out. However, there is one typographical omission in this document, one word left out in all the languages. It is in the last paragraph, 1(b), and it is the word "improved" which should come before the word "seeds". It is in the last line of the paragraph, which will now read, "... and on expanded use of inputs such as improved seeds and fertilizers".
CHAIRMAN: Shall we adopt the Resolution unanimously
K, SHIOZAWA (Japan): My delegation is of the opinion that in order to assist the present food and agricultural programme in Africa the African countries should give priority to the food and agricul tural sector and improve their own self-help effort. We fully recognize that the international community should assist that self-help effort by giving assistance, and we feel the result before us is in line with the decision of my country, and deserves our full support.
Taking full advantage of my opportunity to speak, I would like to mention briefly that the Japanese Foreign Minister who has recently returned from a visit to the drought-affected areas in Africa addressed an appeal to the international community, in which he mentioned the Japanese additional assistance of approximately 50 million US dollars to Africa, and stressed the importance of not only emergency assistance but also possibly carrying out agricultural and food related assistance based on an immediate and long-term point of view of supporting their self-reliant effort. He also stressed the importance of exchange of information and ideas among donor countries, and between donor and
recipient countries, for the effective implementation of such assistance activities. He concluded by saying that relief is urgently required for those African peoples suffering from starvation and malnutrition, and to provide a future for the African children. For those delegations who are interested in the appeal, copies of it are available at the entrance of this room.
CHAIRMAN: I thank the distinguished delegate of Japan for his strong support of the resolution, and for his statement.
Mrs M. FENWICK (United States of America): I just want to say that we whole-heartedly support this and the one word addition. We would like to mention in regard to self-help that in the first paragraph mention is made of the Harare Declaration. I was there, and I am sure we have all read carefully the very sober, dignified and extensively argued portions of the Harare Declaration which refer specifically to self-help. I think that is covered, since we did mention that Declaration, and brought attention to it.
CHAIRMAN: The distinguished delegate of Japan said he was happy to see that emphasis.
Paragraph 45, including Resolution as amended, adopted.
Le paragraphe 45, y compris la resolution , ainsi amende, est adopté
El párrafo 45, incl·uida la Resoluciôn así enmendada, es aprobado
PARAGRAPHS 46 to 62
PARAGRAPHES 46 á 62
PARRAFOS 46 a 62
CHAIRMAN: Paragraphs 46, 47, 48, 49, 50?
L. ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): Solo para adicionar una línea en las dos primeras, por considerar que esto fue reiteradamente planteado en este Consejo. La frase dice: "El Consejo puso de relieve que la seguridad alimentaria dependía no solo de la produccion interior, sino también de un aumento de la capacidad de importaciön." Yo propongo adicionar "la cual se encuentra gravemente afectada en la actualidad por la falta de divisas".
CHAIRMAN: I hope the addition suggested by the distinguished delegate of Cuba is acceptable -... but also on an expanded capacity to import which is seriously affected at present because of lack of foreign exchange".
J. TCHICAYA (Congo): J'appuie l'adjonction faite par l'Ambassadeur de Cuba mais je voudrais apporter un leger ajout à la dernière phrase. Je voudrais qufon ajoute,là où lfon parle "d'instaurer un nouvel ordre ëconomique international", "plus juste afin de promouvoir la sëcurité alimentaire mondiale".
CHAIRMAN: The distinguished delegate of Congo has suggested, "the establishment of a more equitable International Economic Order".
J.R. LOPEZ PORTILLO (México): Estamos por supuesto de acuerdo con esa inclusión "Nuevo Orden Económico Internacional mas justo". Y solicitamos igualmente que se agregue una frase, al final de la primera oraciðn del párrafo 50, donde se habla del "aumento de la capacidad de importación". Para ser consecuentes con lo que muchas delegaciones hemos insistido, es decir, "capacidad de importación no sólo de los productos sino también de los insumos agrícolas y almentarios".
Nuestra delegación inclusive ha hecho referencia en varias ocasiones a que el concepto de seguridad alimentaria debe ser muy claro en este sentido, e incluir no solamente a los productos sino también a los insumos. Pero para no causar turbulencias en este momento, al respecto, sí solicitamos que por lo menos en este párrafo se hable de los insumos agrícolas y la capacidad de importaciðn que debemos tener para lograr la seguridad almentaria.
CHAIRMAN: The sentence,as amended by both the distinguished delegates of Mexico and Cuba, reads as follows: “The Council emphasized that food security depended not only on domestic production but also on an expanded capacity to import both commodities and essential agricultural inputs which were seriously affected at present by a lack of foreign exchange". Thank you for accepting these two amendments.
Paragraph 51, paragraph 52, paragraph 53?
H.J.H.TALEYARKHAN (India): In the third sentence I suggest that "buffer stocks" be put into brackets after "the useful role of reserves".
N. ISLAM (Assistant Director-General, Economic and Social Policy Department): "Reserves" are wider than "buffer stocks", so I wonder whether the equation of buffer stocks and reserves does not dilute the meaning of the paragraph.
CHAIRMAN: Let us leave it as it is. Paragraphs 54, 55, 56, 57, 58?
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): I consider this World Food Security Compact to be an extremely good project and perhaps a little more stress is required to be given to it. It is stated here that "The Council was informed that the Director-General planned to submit to the next session of the CFS a draft of the World Food Security Compact which would not contain any new or binding commitments, but would aim at giving a moral boost to all concerned and provide a basis for promotion action" -There is a mistake there - "for promoting action by governments, international organizations, Non Governmental Organizations and individuals." Here, I would like to insert instead of "individuals", "andinvolvement of wholehearted people's participation". The paragraph continues, "The Committee was encouraged to give full and careful consideration to the draft World Food Security Compact." People's participation is of the utmost importance. "Individual" does not carry the same significance, it is weak. So, "people's participation" must be there.
CHAIRMAN: India has suggested the addition of "people's participation"; NGOs, "people's participation and individuals", "people's participation" means - it will not read well here; "international organizations and NGOs" and India would like to add "people's" -
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): "People's participation as a whole". Instead of "individuals", we can say "people's participation as a whole". What is meant by "individuals" as such, individual by individual? It will be much more comprehensive to say "people's participation as a whole".
DEPUTY DIRECTOR-GENERAL: One cannot anticipate who the individuals would be, but to take an example, let us say something like the Brandt Commission. They are not an international organization, they are not an NGO, they are not people's participation, they are individuals but very important individuals.
That is what I think was in mind here. "People's participation" on the other hand is a phrase that was used rather to describe the participation of small farmers and rural people in their own development efforts. It has a different connotation, so with respect, I would suggest that NGOs and individuals cover the participation of all people. To add "people's participation" would add nothing but a little bit of confusion I think.
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): I disagree with Mr West, I hate to do so, but I have a very strong feeling about the involvement of the people in all these projects. The example he gave of the Brandt Commission does not consider an individual. It's an institutional involvement.
CHAIRMAN: We can make another sentence here: "The need for people's participation was also stressed", so that is it agreeable to you, before the last sentence, "The need for people's participation was also stressed"? Thank you. Paragraphs 59, 60, 61, 62?
Paragraphs 46 to 62, as amended, approved
Les paragraphes 46 á 62, ainsi amendés, sont approuvés
Los párrafos 46 a 62, así enmendados, son aprobados
PARAGRAPHS 63 to 75
PARAGRAPHES 63 à 75
PARRAFOS 63 a 75
G. BULA HOYOS (Colombia): Deseo referirme, señor Presidente, a la última frase del párrafo 66. He hecho llegar a la Secretaría una redacción para esta segunda frase, basada en esa redacción, en tres puntos que estoy seguro no son controvertidos. El primero es para que aparezca aquí, en realidad, el cargo exacto del Presidente de la Conferencia del Gobierno de su país; para que aparezca el nombre de México, que no aparece, y para registrar el reconocimiento que todos hemos hecho a la manera como se presidió esa Conferencia Mundial sobré Pesca.
Diría simplemente así la segunda frase, repito que la he entregado a la Secretaría: "El Presidente de la Conferencia Mundial de Pesca, Excelentísimo Secretario de Pesca de México, Licenciado Pedro Ojeda Paullada, cuya excelente labor fue destacada por el Consejo, hizo una evaluación de los resultados, etc. etc.". Es decir, en vez de agregar un nuevo párrafo, he preferido esta redacción más sencilla.
CHAIRMAN: Mr Henderson, have you got the draft, because otherwise people will not know what we are approving. I suggest as the member has given a draft, the Secretary or the Chairman will read it out to help others. I would also be grateful if the members concerned could also pass on a draft to me.
J.D.M. HENDERSON (Ayudante del Secretario-General): El texto dice: "El Presidente de la Conferencia Mundial de Pesca, Excelentísimo Señor Secretario de Pesca de México, Licenciado Pedro Ojeda Paullada, cuya excelente labor fue destacada por el Consejo, hizo una evaluación... (y continúa lo mismo).
CHAIRMAN: Is that agreeable to Members? I do not hear any objection. Thank you, Colombia for the suggestion.
Paragraphs 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75? Thank you very much, to Fisheries. Thanks also to the Drafting Committee for their excellent drafting.
Paragraphs 63 to 75, as amended, approved
Les paragraphes 63 à 75, ainsi amendés, sont approuvés
Los párrafos 63 a 75, así enmendados, son aprobados
Paragraphs 76 to 77 approved
Les paragraphes 76 et 77 sont approuvés
Los párrafos 76 a 77 son aprobados
PARAGRAPHS 1 to 7
PARAGRAPHES 1 à 7
PÁRRAFOS 1 a 7
H.J.H. TALEYARKHARAN (India): May I suggest that at the end of paragraph 4 ending with "social concern", we add on a sentence. "It was asserted that development could take place without destruction". Thank you.
CHAIRMAN: Is that agreeable to you? I think that "asserted" is not appropriate. "It was pointed out that development could take place without destruction". Paragraph 4 in Forestry, Item 7.1, India has proposed "The Council also stressed the importance of a multidisciplinary approach to land use planning involving forestry, agriculture and other areas of social concern". He suggested, "It was pointed out that development could take place without destruction". That is the purpose of the multidisciplinary approach. Thank you. Paragraphs 5, 6, 7.
Paragraphs 1 to 7, as amended, approved
Les paragraphes 1 à 7, ainsi amendés, sont approuvés
Los párrafos 1 a 7, así enmendados, son aprobados
PARAGRAPHS 8 to 11
PARAGRAPHES 8 à 11
PÁRRAFOS 8 a 11
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): I was only suggesting whether somewhere in 8, 9 or 10 could be mentioned, in order to make the International Year of the Forest more effective, the entire Programme could be placed before the Members as soon as possible before the Forest Year, so that we would know in advance what is proposed and make suggestions of what we might want to do for supplementing it. Just the declaration will not help. I know FAO is doing its best, but if we could have the programme, it could be incorporated somewhere in the body of this draft. It would be helpful.
CHAIRMAN: Exactly what we would like, because in the resolution the last item says "Requests the Director-General" and so on "to respond to requests from FAO Member Nations".
M.A. FLORES RODAS (Assistant Director-General, Forestry Department): Excuse my intervention at this moment, but if I understood correctly, FAO should present the programme for the Year of the Forest to the Members of the Council.
Now, the Council is going to meet next year sometime in June. We have to act as of January 1st, so I do not see when FAO can present it to the Council. I would suggest, Mr Chairman, that this is a decision for the Director-General and the management of the Organization. Eventually, of course, the Director-General will report on the actions taken lack to the Council and to the governing body of FAO.
CHAIRMAN: I think what the delegate of India has in mind is that it should send the programme to the Member Governments and not wait for the Council, in June. He wanted a complete package of proposals or suggestions to be forwarded to all Member Nations of FAO.
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): I entirely agree with what we have indicated, especially for the reason that the Council is not going to meet till mid-next year and the programme is beginning in January. It is necessary for us to know the entire programme arrangements which FAO will be undertaking so painstakingly. So we can start doing as much as we can in our respective countries.
M.A. FLORES RODAS (Assistant Director-General, Forestry Department): Of course, basically the action of the International Year of the Forest is going to take place in the countries themselves, and it is up to the countries to do their own programming and their own action directly, but we could of course write to all the Member Countries suggesting the celebrations and suggesting ideas in general, but not specific programmes. Perhaps I have not understood correctly the suggestion by India.
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): I am not suggesting a day-to-day programme, I am only asking for the particular outline of the programme for the Year, so that along with our national programmes, the very valuable, expert suggestions of the FAO could also be considered and incorporated. That is all I am suggesting, and it will be helpful from their point of view as well in order to make the International Year of the Forest more effective so that we can be out of the woods when we are dealing with the question of the woods!
DEPUTY DIRECTOR-GENERAL: I do not think we should delay too much on this, because I think there is no real problem. I think what has to be clear is that when we are talking about programme, we are talking about everybody's programme, and we are not talking about a new FAO programme that we are going to put into effect now. We can make suggestions to countries, but it will be their programmes, that's all.
CHAIRMAN: Any other suggestions? Otherwise shall we adopt this resolution? There is apparently no broad outline of a programme. What I think the FAO Assistant Director-General says is essentially that the countries should develop their own programmes, as mentioned in the operative part of the resolution. However, India has requested FAO to share its vast knowledge on appropriate methods. That is what I gather, so if Members agree, we could add one sentence: "The Council agreed that 1985 be declared by FAO as the International Year of the Forest and requested FAO to forward to Member Nations suitable suggestions".
Is this agreeable to you, Mr West?
DEPUTY DIRECTOR-GENERAL: I would suggest at the end of paragraph 9, "The Council agreed that 1985 be declared by FAO as the International Year of the Forest requesting the Director-General so to notify Member Nations, including suggestions for national activities". The end of paragraph 9 adding the words "and requested the Director-General so to inform Member Nations, including suggestions for appropriate national activities".
CHAIRMAN: I hope this is agreeable to you. Mr West's proposal is a good one. Thank you very much, Mr West.
L. ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): Perdóneme, señor Presidente, pero usted pasó muy rápido la aprobación, comprendo su prisa pero necesito hacer una observación sobre la Resolución. Quiero dejar claro nuestra preocupación sobre el "Expresando" y el "Estimando". En los párrafos seis y siete, en que se expresa la falta de conciencia política y en el "Estimando" donde se dice tomar las "medidas posibles para acelerar el proceso de intensificación de la conciencia política". Esta Resolución, en el marco de este Consejo que ha tenido como divisa buscar acciones prácticas reales, prácticas posibles, no resoluciones imposibles de cumplir, esto se discutió en el COFO, y creo que se repitió la situación de preguntar a quién se va a concientizar, ¿posiblemente a los dirigentes, dueños de tierras, a los gobernantes de los países? ¿o a los pobladores de las montañas que son los que deforestan, porque no tienen otro lugar donde vivir, porque sus problemas no los tienen resueltos, ya que es un
problema estructural porque nadie les da casas donde vivir? Si no se resuelve el problema económico la concientización polîtica de un medio rural cuyo 80 ó 90 por ciento de sus habitantes son analfabetos, la palabra "conciencia política" en estos párrafos, es un poco formal para no decir un poco retórica.
CHAIRMAN: What is your concrete proposal, Cuba?
L. ARIZA HIDALGO (Cuba): La propuesta concreta es considerar que no es un problema de conciencia política. Creo que es un problema estructural, de resolver los problemas socio-económicos que tienen los habitantes de las montañas que son los que deforestan, los que no se concientizan políticamente.
La propuesta sería demasiado grande, pero quiero llamar la atención de la palabra "conciencia política", a la que habría que buscar un sucedáneo que aclarara si esto va para los gobemantes, pues si es así, esto es posible, se puede hacer una labor deconcientización política; pero en la Resolución no vemos que estos conceptos sean muy factibles. Si es a los gobemantes, repito, sí; pero si es a los que habitan en las montañas no lo veo claro.
J. POSIER (France): La délégation française est en faveur du maintien du paragraphe qui commence par "profondément préoccupé par". La prise de conscience me paraît un élément indispensable du problème, dont il doit être tenu compte; il doit en être tenu compte à tous les niveaux. Pour prendre en considération les remarques faites par l'Ambassadeur de Cuba, on pourrait peut-être modifier légèrement le texte de ce paragraphe et indiquer, par exemple, "profondément préoccupé par l'absence de prise de conscience à tous les niveaux". On ne mentionnerait pas expressément le niveau politique, mais c'est un problème qui se pose effectivement à tous les niveaux, ce qui inclurait implicitement le niveau politique; mais cela ne serait pas mentionné explicitement et la délégation française est en faveur du maintien de ce paragraphe.
J. TCHICAYA (Congo): Nous aussi nous sommes en faveur du maintien du texte. Après avoir écouté l'Ambassadeur de Cuba, il me semble qu'il est d'accord pour le maintien du texte; mais je crois savoir que le texte, en espagnol, est mal libellé parce qu'on parle de conscience politique alors qu'ici dans le texte français on parle de l'absence de concience au niveau politique; c'est assez différent et je pense que nous appuyons cela, mais le texte espagnol parle de conscience politique; là je crois que c'est un peu différent; il convient d'ajuster le texte espagnol au texte français. Je vous remercie.
M.A. FLORES RODAS (Subdirector General, Departamento de Montes): Creo que tal como lo dijo el Congo, la palabra "conciencia" no cabe en el párrafo en español. Debería ser "sensibilidad política". A esto creo que es a lo que se refería específicamente el Embajador de Cuba.
CHAIRMAN: So if the proposal of Franch is agreeable to you, expressing deep concern at the. lack of political awareness at all levels of the social, economic and environmental consequences? Agreed.
H.J.H. TALEYARKHAN (India): This is acceptable. I would only mention after "national activities" could we add that the programmes to be undertaken by various governments through the year may also be conveyed to FAO with a view to sharing knowledge and experience between governments through FAO, so that our experiences could be shared by others.
M.A. FLORES RODAS (Assistant Director-General, Forestry Department): Thank you,Mr Chairman. May I suggest to avoid increasing the thing, if normally all the activities of the Forestry Department and FAO in the Forestry Programmes are reported back to the COFO, which is the Committee on Forestry, as you know. These activities certainly will be in the Agenda reporting back to COFO. This is one point.
The second point is that all countries on the occasion of COFO also report back on their own activities during the previous biennium, so this will accomplish exactly what the distinguished Ambassador of India is suggesting.
Paragraphs 8 to 10, as amended, approved
Les paragraphes 8 à 10, ainsi amendés, sont approuvés
Los párrafos 8 a 10, asi enmendados, son aprobados
Paragraph 11, including Resolution as amended, adopted
Le paragraphe 11, y compris la résolution ainsi amendée, est adopté
El párrafo 11, incluida la Resolución así enmendada, es aprobado
Paragraphs 12 to 19 approved
Les paragraphes 12 à 19 sont approuvés
Los párrafos 12 a 19 son aprobados
Paragraphs 20 to 23 approved
Les paragraphes 20 à 23 sont approuvés
Los párrafos 20 a 23 son aprobados
PARAGRAPH 24, INCLUDING RESOLUTION
PARAGRAPHE 24, Y COHPRIS LA RESOLUTION
PARRAFO 24, INCLUIDA LA RESOLUCION
A.Y. BUKHARI (Saudi Arabia, Kingdom of) (Original language Arabic): Thank you Mr Chairman. In paragraph 5 of the Resolution which says "Invites the Host Government to approve the plan and to take all the necessary measures to implement it as urgently as possible;" I would like to add the following sentence to this paragraph 5: "so that cost increases and inflation should not have a bearing on the planned costs for this project".
Mrs A. DELLA CROCE di DOJOLA (Italy): I was just asking to have the sentence read again because I do not have the whole of it.
CHAIRMAN: May I try to read it so that you can. The Ambassador of Saudi Arabia suggested in the Resolution under the operative part 5, "Invites the Host Government to approve the plan and to take all the necessary measures to implement it as urgently as possible so that cost increases and inflation do not have a bearing on the estimated cost of the project".
DEPUTY DIRECTOR-GENERAL: I appreciate the sense of this, but I think it needs a little redrafting so as to avoid misunderstanding. It could be read as meaning that if cost increases and inflation do occur they will not be taken into account, whereas I think the opposite is intended. So I would say "so as to avoid as far as possible the impact of cost increases and inflation." I hope that is acceptable to the Ambassador.
CHAIRMAN: Mr West has shown how to express it in a clear way - "so as to avoid as far as possible the impact of cost increases and inflation". Would this be agreeable to you? Yes, Italy has agreed. So shall we then adopt this Resolution with the amendment suggested by Saudi Arabia and the wording suggested by Mr West, "so as to avoid as far as possible the impact of cost increases and inflation" at the end of 5.
Paragraph 24 including resolution, as amended, approved
Le paragraphe 24, y compris la résolution, ainsi amendé, est approuvé
El párrafo 24, incluida la resolución, así enmendado, es aprobado
Draft Report of Plenary, Part II, as amended, was adopted
Le projet de rapport de la plénière, Partie II, ainsi amendé, est adopé
El proyecto de informe de la Plenaría, Parte II, así enmendado, es aprobado
The meeting rose at 12:30 hours
La séance est levee à 12 h 30
Se levanta la sesión a las 12.30 horas
